Interview by Dominique Nora

Palantir is an American company that is close to the CIA and that specializes in big data analysis. Our DGSI is equipped with its surveillance software, and a French alternative for it is currently being sought. Interview with Alex Karp, its CEO and co-founder.

Palantir is an American big data analysis company named after the 'seeing stones' of the “Lord of the Rings” with a contrasting image. On the dark side, it is the eye of the American secret services whose surveillance tools are sometimes used for questionable purposes, including against their “allies”. On the lighter side, it enabled the elimination of Osama Bin Laden and plays an important role in preventing Islamist terrorism.

In 2016, following the bloody attacks in Paris, the French General Directorate for Internal Security (DGSI) urgently adopted its platform, which also equips many other European states. However, the intelligence services have been seeking to replace the American tool with a French solution for two years now. Passing through Paris in mid-January before heading to the Davos Economic Forum, the CEO and co-founder of Palantir, Alex Karp, gave an interview to “l’Obs”.

What does France represent for Palantir?

Alex Karp: "Our first two markets are the United States and Great Britain, and then France is on a par with Germany, but Paris is our main office in the European Union. Its role is very important, because it is our base for us to develop across the rest of the continent. It represents significant revenue and a strategic mission. Besides that, many people who are successful at Palantir have one thing in common - they speak French!

Just before you had a meeting with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky in June 2022, you mentioned, in a letter to shareholders, that the risk of nuclear conflict was greater than we think. Why?

I said that at a time when Americans thought there was zero risk. At the time, we weren’t allowed to talk about it, but in this conflict the Ukrainians are successfully using our software against the Russian army. Building Palantir over the past twenty years, I have seen, how companies, secret services and terrorists underestimate the power of software. When one side, Ukraine, uses heroism and agility alongside our platform, they can beat the other side, Russia, who weren’t expecting it, and if that’s the case, it can become very dangerous because Vladimir Putin reasons in terms of a “zero sum game”. He is convinced that victory for Ukrainians would be a loss for Russia, which is quite foreign to the American way of thinking.

You welcome the growth of Palantir, but it is essentially based on global threats: wars, terrorism, pandemics, etc.

While it is true that bad times are good for us, the reality is more complex. The reason this benefits us is that our competitors are giving PowerPoint presentations while we are actually demonstrating transformative software to our customers. So when things get really bad and thousands of people could die, or when the far right is on the verge of power, decision makers test and buy whichever platform works best. And by “working” I don’t just mean getting rid of terrorists, it means doing so while observing the law… which is much more difficult to do! Democratic societies have to resolve the problem of terrorism while respecting data protection.

Is your software the right one for emergencies?

Yes, when companies have problems, they turn to Palantir. Our product has played and continues to play a huge role in counterintelligence, in the distribution of vaccines during the Covid pandemic in the United States and Great Britain… and during wars. No one believes me, but I don’t like war! Many of my friends are pacifists. They think that had the United States behaved differently, the Russians would not have invaded Ukraine. Personally, I think, on the contrary, that if the Russians had understood the real balance of power, they would not have gone in there. Admittedly, we are not a philanthropic organization, but if we build these tools, it is in the service of peace. If people realize that their actions will have consequences, there will be fewer wars, less terrorism.

But can we ensure national security via this type of platform while respecting civil liberties and human rights?

People don’t believe it’s possible, but that’s wrong! It is generally believed that to solve the problem of terrorism, it is necessary to capture the entire amount of thousands of millions of pieces of disparate data. That is what an undemocratic society would do, but you would be smothered alive underneath under this pile of data, and you wouldn’t learn much… And there are things you don’t have access to. Palantir only takes the relevant data subject to local laws, and puts additional rules in place to define who sees what. And that’s enough to allow our customers to fight against terrorism or improve their industrial processes without restricting civil liberties or violating personal data, etc.

How many governments are using your platform in Europe?

It took us five to six years to build this tool, and another five years to systematize it. This is why our product is a hit in Europe. Although the only client that we have the right to name is Denmark, I can tell you that our platform is really used massively in Europe. It is easier to identify countries that do not use us!

In the past, Palantir has been accused by the American left of having provided its tools to the authorities to track down illegal immigrants, of having helped the government to protect itself from WikiLeaks or of having been involved in the Cambridge Analytica scandal… Are these controversies behind you today?

The immigration affair in the United States has been completely politicized. Even in Japan, which hardly accepts any immigrants, I have been asked questions about it! That said, the controversy does not bother me. It is normal that these debates are continuing because Palantir has played a central role in the most important issues affecting Western democracies over the last ten years- preventing the takeover of the far-right in France and elsewhere, which is linked to the resolution of terrorism; saving lives during the pandemic; preventing or countering territorial invasions in Eastern Europe, mainly in Ukraine… And I think our role will be an even more important one over the next ten years.

The problem is also the way in which your customers use your monitoring tool. They can use it in an unethical way, as we saw with the Israeli spyware Pegasus…

The question is a relevant one, but, over a twenty year period, we weren’t all that wrong about it. We have never sold anything to a Chinese or Russian institution. It makes a lot of sense now, but it didn’t make sense fifteen years ago.

But you still sell to countries with little respect for human rights like Qatar and Saudi Arabia…

We sell to certain countries in the Middle East. They have their own code of ethics which is not exactly the same as ours… There is no perfect answer. We’ve turned down some big contracts due to ethical reasons, and I’m proud of that, but when I explain this to my investors, they ask the board why I’m still the CEO! That said, the problem is a complex one. For example, if we sell to the French State, it is legitimate, but what happens if Marine Le Pen comes to power?

On these types of questions, Peter Thiel, the other co-founder of Palantir, and you are politically poles apart. Whose view prevails?

Peter and I are close friends, and I don’t have many of those. Moreover, his political ideas are more complex than what people say, especially on human rights. He’s been a very effective chairman for twenty years, and I run the company. We had lively discussions on every subject. Unlike him, I think Trump is an abomination… Besides, I warned Hillary Clinton’s collaborators during his campaign [in 2016] that he might win, but they thought I was crazy! That said, even before these sorts of dilemmas reach me or Peter, I’ve had “Palantirians” [Palantir employees] yelling at me, “We can’t do this!” And sometimes I agree with them.

You make highly critical remarks against the big groups in Silicon Valley. Why?

Silicon Valley made technology firstly for the military, which it then repackaged supposedly “for the good of humanity”, but, at one point, its leaders said to themselves: why help people, when we can persuade them to transfer all their assets to us? It is a parasitic approach, which amounts to exporting narrow, divisive philosophies for the sole purpose of migrating income to the bank accounts of the few. It is also a problem for Europe and France because these cancerous ideologies are exported here in a highly pathogenic way to the detriment of local technological companies. It is both culturally dangerous for society and economically disastrous.

You once explained that whoever masters artificial intelligence (AI) will rule the world…

It is important for the United States, France, Great Britain and Germany to work together on AI, in particular on algorithmic warfare, because it can really change the balance of power in conflict, and we can do it while at the same time protecting everyone’s sovereignty.

Do you understand the reluctance of the French, who do not want to depend on your tools for sovereign missions?

I have the greatest respect for the arguments about French sovereignty because it goes back to De Gaulle and French history. When I’m in our UK headquarters, I often joke, ‘This is London’… But no one there gets the hint! [Laughs] The real question is: is it not possible for certain parts of the French defense and security technological system – which are very difficult to have built by your services – come from Palantir without affecting your sovereignty? Obviously, it is up to the French government to decide, but, in a crisis, if there is no other tool available for a critical need, it makes sense to buy an American system, provided, of course, that we have proven to the French administration that it is secure.

In the medium term, how do you see your revenues changing between government customers and private customers?

Government revenues are increasing due to the war. Five years from now, I think we will still be around 50/50...

Your growth is good, but your profits are not, and your stock price is dragging. Why?

Last year, Palantir has made $1.9 billion. That’s a lot! Last quarter, our business broke even for the first time in its history, and we expect to generate profits in the current fiscal year, the first year of profitability in the history of our company. We earn money every day from our sales and we have ample cash flow, which allows us to withstand bad times. That said, we are continuing to invest and our results are also affected by the significant equity compensation of our teams. As for the stock market, at times it likes us, at other times not… Long-term evolution is rational, not year-on-year.

Read the full interview in L'Obs here.